Aug 24, 2023·edited Aug 24, 2023Liked by Mr Law, Health and Technology
I wouldn't mind but it is clearly a D... the entire case is a bag of contradictions.
Motive- she wanted a doctors attention... he wasn't even employed at the hospital when the first incidents happened.
OK she loved the thrill, standard hero complex... insulin occurred when she was off the ward, no attention to be gained.
Trophies- aside from she was missing near a quarter.
Incidents stopped while she was on holiday- what about the months that elapsed with no charged Incidents.
Many scoffed at people's suggestions that doctors would lay blame on a nurse, yet readily accept that the highest levels of management ignored doctors to favour a nurse. Backwards
Aug 24, 2023Liked by Mr Law, Health and Technology
The "copious writer of notes" comment reminds me of the psychologist in the 60s (if my memory serves me correctly) who got himself admitted to a psychiatric unit to carry out research. Nursing staff noted that he "displayed writing behaviour."
Aug 28, 2023Liked by Mr Law, Health and Technology
Lucy had a conscience when she said “I am evil, I killed them , I did this”. No, this is someone who is dedicated to her Nursing role - questioning deeply her work ethic and searching her soul - “did I make a mistake, should I have done this differently, should I have not done this ?” Also, when Lucy said she’d never marry, never have children…..what’s novel or perverted, or psychotic about thinking like this. People are trying to label Lucy and vilify her over even this.
Aug 28, 2023Liked by Mr Law, Health and Technology
“Secret code” ?? LO turns out to be nothing more sinister than “LD” - Long Day. I don’t possess 20/20 eyesight, but clearly in Lucy’s diary, I can see a “D”. How many more “mistakes” have been made - must ask.
"But she shows no emotion, she's cold," some argue. They point to her notes that read, "I did this, I am evil," "I killed them because I am not good enough at my job." However, these to those that have been under extreme mental anguish themselves will know, these aren't the confession notes of a typical serial killer. Rather, they reveal someone in the grip of profound emotional turmoil, trapped in a cycle of echoing what she believes others think about her. Picture the immense mental strain an individual, potentially innocent, might endure when facing accusations of such heinous crimes. When told repeatedly that you are responsible, that you caused their deaths, with senior 'expert' doctors echoing this sentiment, wouldn't you question your own culpability? Amid such a torrent of blame, one might struggle to reconcile their self-perception with the narrative thrust upon them.
Drawing from personal experience, I've navigated a mental breakdown while being gaslit by a narcissistic ex-partner over many years. I remember questioning my own sanity, jotting down notes - self-accusations—as if in search of an anchor. In a peculiar way, these notes served as my private cries for help, a way to express the turmoil within. Could Lucy Letby's notes not bear resemblance to a similar struggle? Even seasoned criminologist Professor David Wilson hinted at this interpretation in the panorama documentary. If you haven't seen it or need a refresher, it's worth revisiting his perspective.
Where were the defence teams own expert medical professionals to question the absolute nature of the accusations? Their only star witness other than LL herself was a PLUMBER! Where were the expert trauma specialists, that work with people that have had mental breakdowns due to being victims of gas-lighting, because these are what the scribbled notes are..she wrote these notes after she had been accused, she was in mental turmoil.
Let us see a brand new Trial, with a new Defence Team and plenty of sensible observations and questions, instead of sensationalistic and distorted nonsense - THEN we might see Lucy given a FAIR chance instead of being written off as a heinous criminal.
Absolutely 110% spot - on as i see it; in any case, what does "cold" mean ? She had her bedroom with "sparkles" and it gave quite an uplifting feeling - why should having teddy bears in her room be so unusual......i'm sure many even older than Teens have such objects they love and value.
Seems an attempt was made to discredit Lucy on something so ridiculous as even this.......she was not so cold that she didn't have Rescue cats......saved them from who knows what awful fate.
Is this someone who is uncaring and cold ? Don't think so.......
We should all write to our MPs as this case and any other future case should not be in the public domain whilst the trial is live. Nor should the media be able to get hold of anything that either side provides until the case is over.
The case lasted 10mth and in this time the jurors were not separated from their "normal lives" So whilst they might not have looked at an social/media sources, how is it known that anyone around them didn't share biased views with them.
There may have been a different outcome if the trial wasn't in the public domain and the media hadn't put their evil untrue spin on it.
.....seems like finding someone (Lucy) as a convenient Scapegoat for anything suspect / unexplained in the context of the Unit she worked on.
I understand Lucy had wished to work on a different Unit - she was "disappointed" when that didn't happen. More fodder for those wishing to imply that Lucy was upset at not being able to work on the Unit she really wanted to.......giving yet another excuse to blame her for unfortunate events occurring on "her" Unit.
I have old diaries with 'codes' like this. I can't even remember what most of it meant at the time. Nothing sinister.
I also have notebooks full of CBT exercises which includes writing out negative thoughts, even if completely irrational and not true. It's obvious what those notes are in my case because of the formal structure, but it's possible that someone else would do something similar in a less structured way and end up with notes full of jumbled irrational thoughts.
Everything I've seen leads the belief that her parents are religious and private people. I can imagine at the moment that they too are in shock and struggling to come to terms with what has happened. As far as I know people can still write to prisoners but be aware that all correspondence entering a prison is screened. There are various different people claiming to be starting appeal funds for Lucy - but as yet I would hold off on giving money to any of them, at least until such time as appeal counsel are on record and an appeal is announced. Even then, making donations to the instructing solicitor for preservation in their solicitor's trust account is possibly the best approach.
Please post any information you might have about a trustworthy fundraising project. Also, about who might be a competent appeal lawyer in the UK. As for Lucy Letby herself, I have sent her a supportive letter from Canada to her prison, Low Newton. It remains to be seen if she receives it and is able to respond. (A small point: my envelope was covered in beautiful Canadian stamps to bring some colour into her life.) I told her about the Susan Nellis case in Canada where the similarly falsely accused nurse was evenetually able to launch a successful lawsuit against authorities for malicious prosecution.
Good for you........i have also written to Lucy at the same Prison address - and, like you, i hope that she will receive our letters. It would be brilliant if she is allowed to respond - we go in Hope.
I like your idea to send Lucy the colourful Canadian stamps......especially apt as Lucy "sparkled" and had coloured lights around her bed at home.
Glad you told Lucy about a similar case to her's.........it will give her HOPE and help to keep her mind focussed.
Yes, please do post any information regarding support for Lucy, including Fundraising (as you rightly say, trustworthy) and perhaps the ability to send Lucy letters of support - i realize this would need to be very carefully monitored indeed -but it might make her feel that she is NOT forgotten and to help keep her morale up. I see this as most important.
I should like to be able to write to Lucy to offer my support - i fully understand the need for careful screening of any letters sent to her........can one simply address correspondence directly to her at the prison ?
I am away on holiday for three weeks and upon my return i will check here on Law, Health, and Technology to see if it will be doable to write in support of Lucy to help keep her spirits up and for her to know that there are people who care enough about her to get in touch with her.
Clearly, the letters are Land D - I don’t have 20/20 eyesight, but I can easily distinguish the “D”. This, and other errors in Lucy’s case warrant a re- trial at the least, and an Appeal at minimum - the more I read and evaluate “evidence”, I conclude that a re think and a fresh look at Lucy’s case MUST take place. I am not a clairvoyant, but my “gut instinct” tells me that Lucy is not guilty of all that she is charged with. An unpopular viewpoint but we are not here for “popularity” - a person’s life is at stake and we MUST not make a tragic mistake because not enough questions are being asked by thinking individuals.
Final comment from myself as I have taken up a lot of comment space here…….Lucy’s Defence team seem 1. Convinced of her guilt 150%, 2. Poor at defending her - not REALLY examining the MANOR issues in Lucy’s case - prosecution should be cross-questioned on the relevance of Lucy’s attire when she was arrested - oh, yes - SECRET CODE ?? That was not a secret code - it was LD. Long Day (I sometimes worked those shifts when I was a nurse). Good Defence Team needs.
Reference my last Post re. Lucy’s Defence - what I mean, is it seems that her Defence Team gave up, giving the strong impression that they either believe her to be guilty as charged, or they were poor at presenting a strong case in support of her. Thank you for reading my Posts.
Several people have suggested a spectrum of "they gave up" through to the possibility that "they thought she was guilty." A barrister can defend a client they believe is guilty (and should do so to the best of their abilities as long as they can do so without lying to the court). In a situation where the lawyer believes his client is guilty it can be very difficult to get the judge to grant a request for recusal especially once they are getting close to trial, and it creates a situation whereby the lawyer also cannot present a case that accuses someone else of committing the crime. This again might be why it seems that Ben Myers hands were tied behind his back. He challenges some evidence in cross examination, but he never really advanced an alternate theory of the case that was sufficient to suggest reasonable doubt. To that end, the fact that some people think her defence was compromised by counsel believing she was guilty is a possibility.
In any event, if she continues to maintain her innocence then an appeal needs to be mounted by entirely new counsel and discovery of information regarding all the babies who died or had adverse events on the unit during the period needs to be a significant part of the appeal preparations.
“but he never really advanced an alternate theory of the case that was sufficient to suggest reasonable doubt”
He didn’t have to advance a theory, 6 post mortem results, 5 of natural causes, were allowed to be traduced by the prosecution, without a right of reply by the examining pathologists, that is not theory, just clear cut fact. Two other things, is it usual in England for an inquiry to be announced, before any possible appeal has been lodged, also have the original PM results been amended to infanticide ?
Yes, i wholeheartedly agree with this....and in particular the last paragraph regarding the mounting of an Appeal by an entirely new counsel - and new evidence in Lucy's Defence will be found, based on the discovery of new information.......
I wondered if her parents were paying for her defence and this in someway limited the time her defence had to prepare and would perhaps explain the lack of paid experts involved.
Is there effort being made to let Lucy and her family know about all the support and evidence being compiled in her defence? Is it possible to feed this into a new counsel?
I'm hoping psychologists are looking at the behaviour of the docs involved in all of this too. It doesn't feel quite right to be so apparent in the media.... A book that comes to mind worth reading is Snakes in Suits. Only time will tell, I hope the enquiry touches all of this.
In the 'old days' we had consultants who told experienced nurses to phone them at home if they were worried about a patient or concerned about what a doctor was doing or not doing. Backed up with 'and you' re not to apologise if its 3am'. It clearly isn't like that now!
Hi. On a previous item, I saw that the neonatal unit had been upgraded to a tier 1 (lnu) prior to the upsurge in deaths. It was then downgraded again after the royal college inspection. Is this true and if so does anyone have any evidence to prove this?
.....and in this context, the reference to Baby "O" each time LD is written in Lucy's diary........Lucy looked after this Baby on each of her Long Days.........Mystery........Sinister.......how so ?
Thank you for your Post explaining the Terms of Nurses' Shift Patterns - most helpful to those who may not understand the "code".......sorry !! .........Nursing Terminology.
I found the Post on Baby "E's" demise to be most enlightening, and, whilst most of it is beyond my level of knowledge, i can certainly identify with much of it........everything is so much more critical with little ones.....and the effects of anything done so much more far - reaching.......Lucy appears to have been "beating herself up" especially when taken off the Unit, and being under investigation.......this tallies with her perception of herself (up until this point at least) as being a very good Nurse, good at her work).
I realize that others have said much the same......but thought it worth repeating.....the more of us out there who question the whole situation regarding Lucy, the better our understanding of how she might have felt will, i believe, become.
Seems some were / are focussing too much on details of, for example, Lucy's attire when she was arrested, and "codes", eg. LO LD. Text message whilst on Duty........happens quite a lot i gather. By no means unusual.
I wouldn't mind but it is clearly a D... the entire case is a bag of contradictions.
Motive- she wanted a doctors attention... he wasn't even employed at the hospital when the first incidents happened.
OK she loved the thrill, standard hero complex... insulin occurred when she was off the ward, no attention to be gained.
Trophies- aside from she was missing near a quarter.
Incidents stopped while she was on holiday- what about the months that elapsed with no charged Incidents.
Many scoffed at people's suggestions that doctors would lay blame on a nurse, yet readily accept that the highest levels of management ignored doctors to favour a nurse. Backwards
The "copious writer of notes" comment reminds me of the psychologist in the 60s (if my memory serves me correctly) who got himself admitted to a psychiatric unit to carry out research. Nursing staff noted that he "displayed writing behaviour."
Lol, yes, otherwise known as “writing”.
Lucy had a conscience when she said “I am evil, I killed them , I did this”. No, this is someone who is dedicated to her Nursing role - questioning deeply her work ethic and searching her soul - “did I make a mistake, should I have done this differently, should I have not done this ?” Also, when Lucy said she’d never marry, never have children…..what’s novel or perverted, or psychotic about thinking like this. People are trying to label Lucy and vilify her over even this.
“Secret code” ?? LO turns out to be nothing more sinister than “LD” - Long Day. I don’t possess 20/20 eyesight, but clearly in Lucy’s diary, I can see a “D”. How many more “mistakes” have been made - must ask.
"But she shows no emotion, she's cold," some argue. They point to her notes that read, "I did this, I am evil," "I killed them because I am not good enough at my job." However, these to those that have been under extreme mental anguish themselves will know, these aren't the confession notes of a typical serial killer. Rather, they reveal someone in the grip of profound emotional turmoil, trapped in a cycle of echoing what she believes others think about her. Picture the immense mental strain an individual, potentially innocent, might endure when facing accusations of such heinous crimes. When told repeatedly that you are responsible, that you caused their deaths, with senior 'expert' doctors echoing this sentiment, wouldn't you question your own culpability? Amid such a torrent of blame, one might struggle to reconcile their self-perception with the narrative thrust upon them.
Drawing from personal experience, I've navigated a mental breakdown while being gaslit by a narcissistic ex-partner over many years. I remember questioning my own sanity, jotting down notes - self-accusations—as if in search of an anchor. In a peculiar way, these notes served as my private cries for help, a way to express the turmoil within. Could Lucy Letby's notes not bear resemblance to a similar struggle? Even seasoned criminologist Professor David Wilson hinted at this interpretation in the panorama documentary. If you haven't seen it or need a refresher, it's worth revisiting his perspective.
Where were the defence teams own expert medical professionals to question the absolute nature of the accusations? Their only star witness other than LL herself was a PLUMBER! Where were the expert trauma specialists, that work with people that have had mental breakdowns due to being victims of gas-lighting, because these are what the scribbled notes are..she wrote these notes after she had been accused, she was in mental turmoil.
Totally 110% - you are spot on !!
Let us see a brand new Trial, with a new Defence Team and plenty of sensible observations and questions, instead of sensationalistic and distorted nonsense - THEN we might see Lucy given a FAIR chance instead of being written off as a heinous criminal.
Absolutely 110% spot - on as i see it; in any case, what does "cold" mean ? She had her bedroom with "sparkles" and it gave quite an uplifting feeling - why should having teddy bears in her room be so unusual......i'm sure many even older than Teens have such objects they love and value.
Seems an attempt was made to discredit Lucy on something so ridiculous as even this.......she was not so cold that she didn't have Rescue cats......saved them from who knows what awful fate.
Is this someone who is uncaring and cold ? Don't think so.......
We should all write to our MPs as this case and any other future case should not be in the public domain whilst the trial is live. Nor should the media be able to get hold of anything that either side provides until the case is over.
The case lasted 10mth and in this time the jurors were not separated from their "normal lives" So whilst they might not have looked at an social/media sources, how is it known that anyone around them didn't share biased views with them.
There may have been a different outcome if the trial wasn't in the public domain and the media hadn't put their evil untrue spin on it.
Hear, hear........so well said.
So much Propaganda bandied about......so much damage done to Lucy......not a fair trial by any means......too pat.
.....seems like finding someone (Lucy) as a convenient Scapegoat for anything suspect / unexplained in the context of the Unit she worked on.
I understand Lucy had wished to work on a different Unit - she was "disappointed" when that didn't happen. More fodder for those wishing to imply that Lucy was upset at not being able to work on the Unit she really wanted to.......giving yet another excuse to blame her for unfortunate events occurring on "her" Unit.
I have old diaries with 'codes' like this. I can't even remember what most of it meant at the time. Nothing sinister.
I also have notebooks full of CBT exercises which includes writing out negative thoughts, even if completely irrational and not true. It's obvious what those notes are in my case because of the formal structure, but it's possible that someone else would do something similar in a less structured way and end up with notes full of jumbled irrational thoughts.
How do we offer support to Lucy Letby and her parents? Moral and financial? Can UK prisoners receive letters from people who are to them strangers
Everything I've seen leads the belief that her parents are religious and private people. I can imagine at the moment that they too are in shock and struggling to come to terms with what has happened. As far as I know people can still write to prisoners but be aware that all correspondence entering a prison is screened. There are various different people claiming to be starting appeal funds for Lucy - but as yet I would hold off on giving money to any of them, at least until such time as appeal counsel are on record and an appeal is announced. Even then, making donations to the instructing solicitor for preservation in their solicitor's trust account is possibly the best approach.
Please post any information you might have about a trustworthy fundraising project. Also, about who might be a competent appeal lawyer in the UK. As for Lucy Letby herself, I have sent her a supportive letter from Canada to her prison, Low Newton. It remains to be seen if she receives it and is able to respond. (A small point: my envelope was covered in beautiful Canadian stamps to bring some colour into her life.) I told her about the Susan Nellis case in Canada where the similarly falsely accused nurse was evenetually able to launch a successful lawsuit against authorities for malicious prosecution.
Good for you........i have also written to Lucy at the same Prison address - and, like you, i hope that she will receive our letters. It would be brilliant if she is allowed to respond - we go in Hope.
I like your idea to send Lucy the colourful Canadian stamps......especially apt as Lucy "sparkled" and had coloured lights around her bed at home.
Glad you told Lucy about a similar case to her's.........it will give her HOPE and help to keep her mind focussed.
Yes, please do post any information regarding support for Lucy, including Fundraising (as you rightly say, trustworthy) and perhaps the ability to send Lucy letters of support - i realize this would need to be very carefully monitored indeed -but it might make her feel that she is NOT forgotten and to help keep her morale up. I see this as most important.
I for one will write to Lucy. I hope she will be able to receive my letter.
Help to keep her spirits up......
I should like to be able to write to Lucy to offer my support - i fully understand the need for careful screening of any letters sent to her........can one simply address correspondence directly to her at the prison ?
I am away on holiday for three weeks and upon my return i will check here on Law, Health, and Technology to see if it will be doable to write in support of Lucy to help keep her spirits up and for her to know that there are people who care enough about her to get in touch with her.
Clearly, the letters are Land D - I don’t have 20/20 eyesight, but I can easily distinguish the “D”. This, and other errors in Lucy’s case warrant a re- trial at the least, and an Appeal at minimum - the more I read and evaluate “evidence”, I conclude that a re think and a fresh look at Lucy’s case MUST take place. I am not a clairvoyant, but my “gut instinct” tells me that Lucy is not guilty of all that she is charged with. An unpopular viewpoint but we are not here for “popularity” - a person’s life is at stake and we MUST not make a tragic mistake because not enough questions are being asked by thinking individuals.
Final comment from myself as I have taken up a lot of comment space here…….Lucy’s Defence team seem 1. Convinced of her guilt 150%, 2. Poor at defending her - not REALLY examining the MANOR issues in Lucy’s case - prosecution should be cross-questioned on the relevance of Lucy’s attire when she was arrested - oh, yes - SECRET CODE ?? That was not a secret code - it was LD. Long Day (I sometimes worked those shifts when I was a nurse). Good Defence Team needs.
Reference my last Post re. Lucy’s Defence - what I mean, is it seems that her Defence Team gave up, giving the strong impression that they either believe her to be guilty as charged, or they were poor at presenting a strong case in support of her. Thank you for reading my Posts.
Several people have suggested a spectrum of "they gave up" through to the possibility that "they thought she was guilty." A barrister can defend a client they believe is guilty (and should do so to the best of their abilities as long as they can do so without lying to the court). In a situation where the lawyer believes his client is guilty it can be very difficult to get the judge to grant a request for recusal especially once they are getting close to trial, and it creates a situation whereby the lawyer also cannot present a case that accuses someone else of committing the crime. This again might be why it seems that Ben Myers hands were tied behind his back. He challenges some evidence in cross examination, but he never really advanced an alternate theory of the case that was sufficient to suggest reasonable doubt. To that end, the fact that some people think her defence was compromised by counsel believing she was guilty is a possibility.
In any event, if she continues to maintain her innocence then an appeal needs to be mounted by entirely new counsel and discovery of information regarding all the babies who died or had adverse events on the unit during the period needs to be a significant part of the appeal preparations.
“but he never really advanced an alternate theory of the case that was sufficient to suggest reasonable doubt”
He didn’t have to advance a theory, 6 post mortem results, 5 of natural causes, were allowed to be traduced by the prosecution, without a right of reply by the examining pathologists, that is not theory, just clear cut fact. Two other things, is it usual in England for an inquiry to be announced, before any possible appeal has been lodged, also have the original PM results been amended to infanticide ?
Yes, i wholeheartedly agree with this....and in particular the last paragraph regarding the mounting of an Appeal by an entirely new counsel - and new evidence in Lucy's Defence will be found, based on the discovery of new information.......
I wondered if her parents were paying for her defence and this in someway limited the time her defence had to prepare and would perhaps explain the lack of paid experts involved.
Is there effort being made to let Lucy and her family know about all the support and evidence being compiled in her defence? Is it possible to feed this into a new counsel?
The “Leisure suit” versus “Nightgown” issue - I call it a “Tracksuit”…….so what ??? Get a life !!
I wouldn't leave the house in a nightie! Surely police would allow her to get dressed?
Spot on - and thank you for your your likes of my Posts.
Let us hope that Lucy WILL have a Re - trial and an Appeal - so much about this case just does not add up and ring true.......
I'm hoping psychologists are looking at the behaviour of the docs involved in all of this too. It doesn't feel quite right to be so apparent in the media.... A book that comes to mind worth reading is Snakes in Suits. Only time will tell, I hope the enquiry touches all of this.
Yes, absolutely........on a personal note, i am always wary of what doctors have to say.
In the 'old days' we had consultants who told experienced nurses to phone them at home if they were worried about a patient or concerned about what a doctor was doing or not doing. Backed up with 'and you' re not to apologise if its 3am'. It clearly isn't like that now!
Lucy Letby deserves further consideration for a Re-trial at best, an appeal as a minimum.
Hi. On a previous item, I saw that the neonatal unit had been upgraded to a tier 1 (lnu) prior to the upsurge in deaths. It was then downgraded again after the royal college inspection. Is this true and if so does anyone have any evidence to prove this?
The RCPCH Invited Reviews Report dated November 2016 describes the changes (or re-designations) in status briefly in the Executive Summary on Page 4
.....and in this context, the reference to Baby "O" each time LD is written in Lucy's diary........Lucy looked after this Baby on each of her Long Days.........Mystery........Sinister.......how so ?
Thank you for your Post explaining the Terms of Nurses' Shift Patterns - most helpful to those who may not understand the "code".......sorry !! .........Nursing Terminology.
I found the Post on Baby "E's" demise to be most enlightening, and, whilst most of it is beyond my level of knowledge, i can certainly identify with much of it........everything is so much more critical with little ones.....and the effects of anything done so much more far - reaching.......Lucy appears to have been "beating herself up" especially when taken off the Unit, and being under investigation.......this tallies with her perception of herself (up until this point at least) as being a very good Nurse, good at her work).
I realize that others have said much the same......but thought it worth repeating.....the more of us out there who question the whole situation regarding Lucy, the better our understanding of how she might have felt will, i believe, become.
Seems some were / are focussing too much on details of, for example, Lucy's attire when she was arrested, and "codes", eg. LO LD. Text message whilst on Duty........happens quite a lot i gather. By no means unusual.
Goffman, Erving Goffman.